This week Listen Up TV takes you to
the heart of the Gay Village in Toronto- the
community that has sparked a revolution in Canada.
It started through the courts, it has moved its
way all the way back to parliament as we decide
should this country accept gay marriage. It's not
a very Canadian thing to be disagreeing with our
neighbours in vocal and outspoken ways…but
that's exactly what this debate has sparked. Today
we discover, is there a way to find any common
ground as we move forward on individual
rights.
Peter Jervis has an Honours Bachelor of Arts degree from the University
of Toronto, a Master of Arts degree from Cambridge University in England, and a
Bachelor of Laws degree from Queen's University. He received his Master of Laws
degree in Constitutional Law from Osgoode Hall Law School. He was called to the
Bar in 1983. From 1983 to 1986, Peter specialized in commercial and civil
litigation. In 1986-1987, he worked for the Constitutional Law Division of the
Ontario Ministry of the Attorney General for one year, specializing in
constitutional and Charter litigation. Since then he has been involved in
constitutional law cases at all levels of courts including the Supreme Court of
Canada.
David Novak holds the J. Richard and Dorothy Shiff Chair of Jewish
Studies, as Professor of the Study of Religion and Professor of Philosophy at
the University of Toronto. He is a member of University College and of the Joint
Centre for Bioethics. A Fellow of the American Academy for Jewish Research and
the Academy for Jewish Philosophy, he has also served on the International
Advisory Board convened by the Government of Poland for the future of the
Auschwitz-Birkenau site. David Novak is the author of many books, including The
Election of Israel: The Idea of the Chosen People, Natural Law in Judaism and
its sequel, Covenantal Rights. Novak is on the steering committee of Enshrine
Marriage Canada, a national, not-for-profit organization based in Toronto. It
recognizes the critical role of marriage in our society and is coordinating a
national campaign to enshrine the traditional legal definition of marriage in
the Canadian constitution.
Tom Reily came from Scotland in 1966 and lived and taught in
Bracebridge (Vice Principal and Principal). He then Joined Dufferin -Peel RCSS
Board in 1974 as Principal of John Newman and then St. Thomas Aquinas Schools:
Superintendent of Schools, Superintendent of Program/Special Services,
Superintendent of Planning, and Associate Director of Education at Dufferin-Peel.
On January 1, 1989 he became the Executive Director of COSS (Completion Office
Separate Schools). One of the mandates of this office was the pursuit of equity
in educational finance in Ontario. On July 1, 1990 he became the Director of
Education at Dufferin-Peel. On August 1, 1995 to the present day he is the
General Secretary, Ontario Conference of Catholic Bishops. Tom has been married
for 47 years and has 5 children and 7 grandchildren.
Bruxy Cavey is the Teaching Pastor of The Meeting House, a multiple
site church in the Greater Toronto Area.Bruxy completed his undergrad in
Psychology and Communications at York University followed by a Master's of
Theological Studies from Tyndale Seminary, both Toronto based. He has over 11
years of vocational pastoral experience and has been the lead Teaching Pastor at
the Meeting House since 1996.Bruxy is a sought-after communicator on university
campuses, in high schools, at church leadership conferences and churches
throughout North America. He has taught at the college level on the interaction
between faith and the arts and has been a guest on various television and radio
programs.Bruxy's engaging and provocative style provides a challenging and
upbeat way of communication in a 'church for people who aren't into church'.
Michael Slaughter featured his use of an open question and answer period during
his messages in the book "unLearning Church".The Meeting House was
originally established as the Upper Oaks Community Church in 1986, changed its
name in the fall of 2000 and is part of a denomination called Brethren in
Christ.Bruxy, his wife Nina and their two daughters, Chelsea and Chanelle, live
in Hamilton, Ontario.
Mark Crowe is presently helping to facilitate a Living Waters Program
in Toronto. This includes people coming from varied backgrounds of sexual,
relational and addictive issues. This is a life changing discipleship program
that allows people to live new lives as they find the Love and Life that flow
from Jesus through the Cross and His resurrection. I have worked in this field
for six years at Evangel Temple.
RESPONDING TO THE GAY MARRIAGE DEBATE By Bruxy
Cavey, Teaching Pastor @ THE MEETING HOUSE
Few topics generate more emotion and misunderstanding in our culture
than the current debate over gay and lesbian marriage. As a
Christ-follower and spiritual leader I am asked about this issue more than
almost any other, by people who genuinely want to learn about Jesus and by
people who just want to pick a fight. I have encountered more bias and
bigotry on both sides of the divide regarding this issue than any other.
Everyone seems quick to judge and slow to listen.
We have covered this topic more than once at The Meeting House and
messages are available online. For now, here is a printed overview of some
of our thoughts on issues concerning Christian faith and the queer
community.
Being A "Third Way" Church
My hope is that The Meeting House can be what I would call a
"third way" church.
Traditionally, churches fall into one of two categories:
Conservative churches condemn homosexuality and homosexuals. They
invest large amounts of energy into fighting against any perceived queer
community agenda. They organize rallies, sign petitions, and keep a sharp
eye out for any activity within the queer community that they might
perceive as anti-family.
Liberal churches react against this love-less approach by embracing
members of the queer community with no distinction and no challenge toward
change. These queer-friendly churches agree with, approve of, and support
homosexual orientation and practice.
As a "third way" church, we at The Meeting House want to ask
the question, is it possible to disagree with people and still respect and
even embrace them? I believe this is possible, and the key is to ask
Bible-embracing Christians to use Jesus as their model of how to interpret
and live out these teachings. When Christians follow Jesus rather than use
the Bible to prop up their own conservative agendas, everything changes.
We consider The Meeting House a queer-positive church. We do not preach
that people must change their sexual orientation in order to follow Jesus.
Instead, we invite all people to change their spiritual orientation,
toward God and their fellow human beings.
When we do this, we will submit our humanness, in all its wonder and
flaws, to God and his way of living as revealed in the teachings of Jesus.
To be gay or straight or bi or trans is to be a wonderful image-bearer of
God, yet to be so in imperfect, broken, and often hurting ways. We seek to
embrace and challenge all people in their sexual purity, but this is not a
message for any one classification of human being.
The Truth About "Us" & "Them"
In short, the truth about "us" and "them" is that
there is no "them". There is only "us". We are all
beautiful and precious people, infinitely valued by God. We are also all
sexually broken people to one degree or another, needing the healing of
authentic community to live as Jesus calls us to live.
I may be heterosexual, but all that means is that I live every day with
temptations toward inappropriate sexual expression - to have sex outside
of marriage with women. My heterosexuality is not naturally monogamous. I
am, to some extent, broken. My gay friends also live every day with the
sexual temptation to express their sexuality in inappropriate ways. There
is nothing more holy or noble about my temptation verses my gay friends'
temptations. Just because for them this temptation is directed toward
others of their same gender does not diminish our common bond as humans
and, for my Christian friends, as Christ-followers. Together we honour God
by submitting our sexual temptations to the lordship of Jesus.
From a Christian perspective, our sexual orientation only helps define
what our area of sexual temptation and perhaps dysfunction will be - but
we are all tempted (and to some extent, dysfunctional) in one way or
another. To be human is, among other things, to be in some wonderful and
weird way, sexually dysfunctional. We are all sexually broken people, as
well as sexually glorious people (Romans 3:23-24; Psalm 51:5).
A Message To The Christian Community
I would like to encourage Christians who invest too much time in making
the queer community our opponents to learn the difference between
acceptance and agreement. When we confuse these two concepts we do not
love as we should. Conservative Christians seem to find a hard time fully
accepting someone unless that someone first changes, repents, and becomes
like them. They cannot disagree and, at the same time, fully respect,
honour, and accept the other person as the Bible calls us to (see Titus
3:1-2; 1 Thessalonians 3:12; 1 Peter 2:17; 3:15). When we understand that
acceptance and agreement are two different concepts, we will finally stop
withholding acceptance as a form of disagreement and will learn to better
love those outside our boundaries of agreement.
May I also suggest that we stop demanding Christian ethics from people
who do not claim to be Christ-followers and Bible morality from people who
don't claim to follow the Bible. Our secular government is doing its best,
outside of a Christian worldview, to create a loving, respectful, and
stable society. We should commend them for that and not expect that they
will approach this topic from a biblical perspective as we would, wanting
to preserve the full image of God in us as male and female in covenantal
marriage (Genesis 1:26-27). Remember that Jesus taught his ethics to his
disciples (Matthew 5:1-2).
Lastly, I would also call Christ-followers to declare their love
through their actions. Conservative Christians have the well-earned
reputation of putting a lot of energy into their messages of disapproval.
They hold rallies, sign petitions, and write letters to the government to
show their opposition to the gay "agenda" (whatever that may
be). All of their active energy goes into the "we don't approve"
message. What about the "we love you" message? That aspect of
Christian response to the queer community is usually given a token sound
bite, often in the middle of the rallies organized to highlight the
"we disapprove" message.
I would like to suggest that we have it completely backwards. We should
be pouring our active energies into the "we love you" message.
We should be the first to look out for the human rights of any oppressed
group, including gays and lesbians. We should find practical ways to serve
the queer community, always showing them the utmost respect as
image-bearers of God. If we are going to organize letter-writing
campaigns, let them be letter-writing campaigns of love expressed to our
queer community friends. If we do this rightly, we will be living the
counter-cultural lifestyle that Jesus holds out for us. We will be that
unique Kingdom society within our secular culture that shows the world how
to bless those whom we do not agree with and who may not agree with us.
And within that context of organized, active, energetically demonstrated
love, we may then also make ourselves clear with the sound bite of
disagreement and disapproval. If we are loving as radically as we should,
this will only make the love we offer all the more meaningful and
transformative.
A Message To The Homosexual Community
If you are a member of the queer community, the most important thing
you need to hear me say is simply this: "I'm sorry". I'm sorry
that the church has for so long made you feel inferior because of your
orientation. I'm sorry that we have not demonstrated love, but judgement.
I'm sorry that we have not slowed down enough to understand your struggles
and. I'm sorry we have not represented Jesus to you as we are called to.
If you are willing to hear me say more, then I would also like to
encourage you to consider the same lesson as the church needs to learn:
the difference between acceptance and agreement. I would recommend that
you stop expecting or even desiring all Christians to agree with you. It
will never happen, and so, if that is to be the necessary basis for peace
between our communities, that too will never happen. But then, who wants
peace based on absolute agreement at all times? That is a fragile and
false pseudo-peace that prevents us all from being who we believe we were
created to be.
Please know that it is possible for someone to believe that homosexual
sexual expression is wrong, a sin, just as they believe that heterosexual
sexual expression outside of marriage is sin, and that doesn't make them a
bigot, a redneck, or homophobic in the least. Get to know us enough to
realize that many of us do not have an anti-queer agenda and do not divide
our thought world into gay and straight. I believe we can form mutually
respectful friendships between our communities without demanding absolute
agreement on all issues. And it is this mutually respectful diversity that
will, in the end, provide us all with the most opportunity for growth,
loving, and learning.
A Message To Homosexual Christians
As a Christ-follower, we are spiritual family - brothers and sisters
together, regardless of sexual orientation. May I also suggest that you
needn't be confused by the "I was born this way" argument. To be
a Christian is to believe that Jesus is our Lord - not our past, our
biology, or our desires. Biological determinism is never the answer.
Biology is not destiny. Life is about choice.
As a heterosexual, I could argue that I was born with sexual desires to
have sex with more than one woman, and so I should have the right to live
that way. But I do not go down that road because I am a Christ-follower,
not a Bruxy-follower. Not every desire I have is to be indulged, whether I
was born with them or not.
Jesus told the rich young ruler to give up everything he had. Why would
God give him so much at birth, allowing him to be born into privilege,
only to ask him to give it all away? I don't know. But he did. I suspect
that Jesus knows what we are tempted to make an idol of, whether that is
our possessions, our sexual orientation, or our religious affiliation.
Regardless, we submit all things to the leadership of Christ.
ARTICLES & INTERVIEWS
"This could resolve the marriage debate" Calgary Herald - Feb.
6, 2005 - Rev. Jim Wallace
Weddings are complex, emotional events. I should know. I have performed
hundreds of them. The strong emotions and passionate opinions being expressed
during the current marriage debate come with the territory. I strongly support
the traditional heterosexual definition of marriage. It is the kind of marriage
I have. It is the kind of marriage I perform. My concern is that during this
debate people are playing politics - inside and outside the caucuses and the
churches.
When I look down the road two years from now, I see nothing but problems with
the positions on marriage being articulated by political parties. The Liberal
party has introduced a bill that is inadequate, at best, in assuring the
protection of religious freedom. They have set the stage for endless court
battles. If the Liberals win, where will marriage be two years from now? In the
courts. At the same time, the Conservative party is ignoring the clear
statements of the Supreme Court of Canada and the rulings of seven provincial
courts. Even if the Conservatives are able to defeat the same-sex marriage bill,
it will still be legal in seven provinces and one territory. If the
Conservatives win, where will marriage be two years from now? In the courts.
And where will the clergy and religious institutions of our country be two
years from now? In the courts. We will be defending our sacred beliefs and
practices while using up precious donation dollars. This is not where I want to
be. I want to be leading couples in vows of fidelity to God and each other in
keeping with the tenets of my faith.
The only solution I see to this quagmire is to heed the words of Jesus:
"Give to Caesar what is Caesar's, and to God what is God's" (Matthew
22:21). Given that the government and the courts are intent on granting same-sex
couples the right to marry, I believe the best solution is to separate the civil
and religious dimensions of marriage permanently. All relationships should be
registered with the government as civil unions for the purpose of defining
legal, financial and governmental rights and obligations. Instead of a ceremony,
there would be a registration process. Then, religious institutions (and other
organizations) would be free to perform marriages in keeping with their beliefs,
traditions and sacred writings.
Is this possible? Many countries have chosen this approach. It has been
working in Europe for years. Is it acceptable? Ian Benson, one of the lawyers
representing the Interfaith Coalition for Marriage before the Ontario and B.C.
courts, recently argued that it is. Likewise, popular evangelical Tony Campolo
has made the same argument. Most legal experts agree that this would require a
constitutional amendment in Canada, something I don't believe our governments
have the political will to embrace. However, it could be accomplished by the
provinces. In Alberta - notwithstanding our government's position - we have the
legal framework already in place.
After Parliament passes the same-sex marriage legislation, the province
should withdraw from the marriage business. Stop issuing marriage licences. Stop
authorizing clergy to perform marriages. All relationships in Alberta would be
registered under the Adult Interdependent Relationships Act. Clergy would be
free to solemnize marriages in keeping with their beliefs and without government
interference. The de facto result would be the separation of civil and religious
marriage - true separation of church and state.
Lest you think this is a radical proposition, you should talk to your clergy
person. In my conversations with front-line clergy, I have found willing support
for this solution. They may not be saying it publicly, but they are privately.
One of Canada's top religious leaders recently told me he is finding little
desire among Canada's clergy to fight for the right to solemnize civil
marriages. He stated that 60% or more of the leaders he had spoken with felt
this way. Clergy do not want to be agents of the state; they want to be servants
of God.
I have been asking myself a question over and over during this debate:
"Would I go to jail to defend my right to perform a marriage ceremony in
keeping with the doctrines of my Christian faith?" Absolutely! "Would
I go to jail to defend the government's right to issue a piece of paper that
seems to mean little to many of the couples who sign it?" Not on your life!
The solution is simple. Do we have the courage to embrace it?
Jim Wallace is senior pastor at South Calgary Community Church.
Interview with Gerald Vandezande - Working Group in Civil Unions by Marie
MacNeill
Gerald Vandezande was born in 1933 and grew up in Nazi-occupied
Holland. He is an advocate for justice and reconciliation and founder of
"Working Group in Civil Unions" which is currently working for
solutions regarding the same-sex marriage debate. He is the former National
Public Affairs Director of Citizens for Public Justice, a non-partisan Christian
political research and advocacy organization.
Do you believe the definition of marriage in the Canadian Charter of
Rights and freedoms should be changed to include gay and lesbian unions? We
at Citizens for Public Justice have made a formal proposal to have all types of
unions registered as civil unions, leaving the issue of the blessing of the
church in the church's hands.
Isn't including gay and lesbian unions in your proposal condoning
something God would not approve of? God disapproves of a lot of things.
Marriage in the Old Testament didn't exist. Until the 19th and 20th century, men
decided who would marry whom and women had no choice. Marriage is now a
voluntary union between a man and woman for life. The reality of separation and
divorce existed in biblical times and the church excommunicated people who
divorced. The church has since relaxed to some degree on the divorce issue.
Living in a pluralistic society, we have diverse views so we have to ask what is
the right thing to do in this case? The church shouldn't use its power to pass
legislation. Instead we should ask what is the public justice thing to do? If we
have a public justice position then the church can hold onto its marriage
position but for the purposes of law, we should give government the
responsibility to provide legal protection for non-believing people, people of
different faiths and even people of different sexual orientation, to enter into
marriage. Faced with this responsibility then, the state has to find way to
provide some public safeguards for a variety of relationships.
So you believe the proposal Citizens for Public Justice has made to policy
makers embodies a Christian perspective on the same sex marriage issue?
Citizens for Public Justice has proposed to policy makers that all relationships
- gay, lesbian or heterosexual - should be registered at city hall as civil
unions. From there, the couple can define their relationship however they
choose, go to the faith community that they want to identify with and, if they
want to get a blessing and if the faith community agrees, then they can get
their union blessed. Though some Christians might say this could be seen as
condoning something God would see as immoral, this plan actually protects the
church's ability to refuse to marry people because the "blessing"
aspect of the relationship would not be a state issue and could not be
legislated. As it is now, marriage and civil unions are a state issue and this
allows the state to insist, if it so chooses, that churches bless gay and
lesbian unions.
How do you think we got to the place we're presently at with the same-sex
marriage issue? Ten years ago, when the issue first presented itself, I
spoke to the gay community about creating a separate category under the Charter
of Rights for their unions and they were in favour of it. I took the proposal to
the Christian community and they would not accept this accommodation, seeing it
as a compromise. Because Christians insisted that only there view prevailed,
this forced people to go to court and say there's no option but to ask for the
marriage definition to be changed to include them. You cannot develop policy
without listening to the people directly affected by it and counting the
potential cost of not doing things in a certain way for the well being of all.
One can be firm in one's convictions and still listen to what others have to say
and work together toward possible legal solutions to something that does require
addressing. It is crucial that in a civilization, we articulate and demonstrate
through our actions what we really understand Jesus to mean when he said do
justice, show mercy, practice faithfulness and demonstrate love in all that you
are and do.
How do you see gay and lesbian couples fitting into the church community?
The faith community is a gathering of sinners who have come to the realization
that they are broken people who need to be restored, redeemed, reconciled and
renewed. I want to invite into that community - where brokenness and repentance
is announced and preached - everyone who wants to hear the gospel. If then a gay
couple wants to be part of the church's life, I say, become a part of the
church's life. Open your heart to what the gospel might have to say to your
relationship. We don't reject capitalists, socialists or marxists. We shouldn't
reject anyone. Jesus never turned anyone away. He invited people to come, hear,
listen and do. We should say to all, "Jesus wants you to be this whole
person, accepting this beautiful new life that the Spirit gives you and so let's
work together at the meaning of our salvation and help one another to be more
sensitive neighbours, reaching out to one another in love and compassion, and
calling each other to accept responsibility.
A MESSAGE TO THE HOMOSEXUAL COMMUNITY- Pastor Bruxy Cavey
If you are a member of the queer community, the most important thing you need to
hear me say is simply this: "I'm sorry". I'm sorry that the church has
for so long made you feel inferior because of your orientation. I'm sorry that
we have not demonstrated love, but judgement. I'm sorry that we have not slowed
down enough to understand your struggles and. I'm sorry we have not represented
Jesus to you as we are called to.
If you are willing to hear me say more, then I would also like to encourage
you to consider the same lesson as the church needs to learn: the difference
between acceptance and agreement. I would recommend that you stop expecting or
even desiring all Christians to agree with you. It will never happen, and so, if
that is to be the necessary basis for peace between our communities, that too
will never happen. But then, who wants peace based on absolute agreement at all
times? That is a fragile and false pseudo-peace that prevents us all from being
who we believe we were created to be.
Please know that it is possible for someone to believe that homosexual sexual
expression is wrong, a sin, just as they believe that heterosexual sexual
expression outside of marriage is sin, and that doesn't make them a bigot, a
redneck, or homophobic in the least. Get to know us enough to realize that many
of us do not have an anti-queer agenda and do not divide our thought world into
gay and straight. I believe we can form mutually respectful friendships between
our communities without demanding absolute agreement on all issues. And it is
this mutually respectful diversity that will, in the end, provide us all with
the most opportunity for growth, loving, and learning.
MAKE CONTACT: Believe it or not, you may be one of the few people who
have strong enough feelings about an issue to make contact with your member.
Often people fall prey to feelings of complacency and general political
inefficacy, but it's important to know that your opinions matter to the person
you have elected to office. Even if you can't speak directly to your
representative, tallies are kept of constituent opinions received through
e-mail, telephone, fax, letters and personal visits, which are reported to the
Member. It is one way that constituents keep the Member in touch with public
opinion within his/her riding. ...activism101/makingcontact.html
WRITE A LETTER TO YOUR MP: (and the Prime Minister) When it comes to
government policymaking, your opinions count but only if you share them. A
letter to your Member of Parliament or provincial representative is one sure way
to make certain your views are considered. A few things to ask yourself: ...activism101/writeletter.html
PETITION: Another effective way of communicating public opinion is to lead a
petition campaign. Petitioning the government on an issue lets them know how
you, and many others, feel about an issue. By asking your elected representative
to present it to the government in the House of Commons or provincial
legislature, you keep the issue in the public eye. ...activism101/petition.html
Coming out of homosexuality by Bob Davies & Lori Rentzel (IVP,
1996)
You don't have to be gay: Hope and freedom for males struggling with
homosexuality.... by Jeff A. Konrad (Pacific Publishing House, 1987). A
conversational series of letters between Jeff and Mike, a young man who
experiences unwanted same-sex attraction
Marriage on the Rock will be a week, or special Sunday, when congregations
across Canada are being encouraged to focus on marriage - as God designed it.
Since marriage is more than a romance relationship, this event recognizes the
need for marriage support from the broader
Christian community.
For more info on how to get involved please click onto this site: www.christianity.ca/family/marriage...
Listen Up with Lorna Dueck is available ON-LINE in a variety of ways.
Click here to find out more!
Pacific 1:30
am Monday
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Central 3:30am
Eastern 4:30am
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Read Lorna's Globe & Mail columns by searching
our archive.
Read 'Media & The Message'. Lorna says if the church wants to impact society, we need to share our stories.
On April 30, 2005 Lorna was privileged to receive an honorary Doctorate of Christian Ministries from Canada's largest Christian university, Trinity Western University. Lorna was recognized for the witness and leadership that Listen Up TV has provided in public messaging: "a leader in the voice of evangelical life in Canada."
